Okay. Normally I ignore these types of posts, because everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you like Lusamine and want her to be redeemed, then I can’t agree with you, but you’re entitled to it and I won’t tell you otherwise. However, when you say things like this:
“Now! Compare that to the actual abuser in Pokémon, Ghetsis. [. . .] I get why people want to call Lusamine abusive and it’s possible she could have gotten there but no she does not belong with an actual abuser”
I have to say something. I’m going to try to remain calm, because civil discussion is the only way things ever get accomplished, but this is a very personal issue to me (enough so that I had to step away for a moment because what you said right there is that upsetting and to be honest hurtful), so I apologize if my tone gets a little harsh partway through.
First, to get this out of the way:
Lusamine canonically abuses her children, ON SCREEN, in both the original SM and USUM.
What Lusamine did in the past is one thing. We are told, thanks to Gladion and Lillie both, that she was abusive to them in the past. Gladion’s dialogue about “being like an ornament to [his] mother” exists in both SM and USUM. Despite Game Freak wanting to downplay Lusamine’s abuse in USUM in an effort to make her seem like an antihero instead of a villain, they did not remove that dialogue if you speak to him during the infiltration of Aether Paradise. A mother treating her children like objects is a mother who is abusing her children. It is literal objectification and there is simply no way to get around that. Furthermore, we know in SM that the abuse was so bad that Gladion grasped at whatever justification he could find in order to help himself cope with it, which in turn led to him blaming Mohn because that was an explanation he could deal with (in the sense that telling himself, “Mother is hurting me because she’s upset about Father” was easier than “Mother is abusing me because she doesn’t love me”). From the boy’s own mouth:
“Lusamine’s obsession with Ultra Wormholes … and her obsession with the Ultra Beasts … I think it was all basically her way of trying to reach him again. That’s what I had to believe. To get through it.”
Gladion is not saying that Lusamine’s behavior was absolutely a result of her desire to see Mohn again. He’s saying that he made himself believe this because it was the only way he could get through the abuse. Again, blaming his father’s disappearance was easier for him, emotionally, then other (far more plausible) justifications. We also know (though this dialogue was removed from USUM) that Lusamine treated Lillie even more abysmally than she did before after Gladion’s disappearance, likely because Gladion wasn’t there to be a target anymore*:
“But … but when you took Null and left Aether Paradise two years ago … you left me alone with Mother! She was so bad after you left! If I hadn’t had Wicke with me …”
Wicke was the only barrier between Lillie and a mother who treated her so horribly that she has held some resentment toward her brother for leaving her there for the past two years. Considering Lillie only left Aether Paradise six months prior to the game’s beginning, we know that Lusamine has therefore been abusing Lillie for well over a year, probably longer.
(*I say this from personal experience. Abusers often pick one target to single out and lay most of their fire on. They’ll abuse others around them, yes, particularly in the case of abusive parents with multiple children, but even in the case of abusive parents with multiple children, one child will often get it harsher than the others, particularly if that child tries to shield the others (and we know that Gladion is canonically a protective person, so it makes sense that he would want to shield Lillie). It’s highly probable that Lusamine concentrated her abuse on Gladion, and when he left, he removed himself as a target of her abuse. Thus, she turned her attention on Lillie, who suddenly found herself receiving much worse treatment than before.)
However, as I said, that’s all in the past. The fact of the matter is, though, that we see Lusamine abuse Gladion and Lillie in the present.
Ghetsis, for all that you call him “the actual abuser” (as if this series is only allowed to have one?), calls N a “freak without a human heart,” which is dialogue that is so cartoonish it’s laughable. Yes, it’s a mean thing to say, but it’s also not something that an abuser in real life is likely going to spout off. It doesn’t sound real. Lusamine, however, verbally and emotionally abuses both Lillie and Gladion (and in particular Lillie) in both SM and USUM, right in front of the player, using language that is very realistic. I say this, because the things that Lusamine says to Gladion and Lillie are straight up things that my abusive mother said to me in my adolescence, back when we were still in contact.
A few examples of Lusamine’s verbal abuse:
“Hmm, so you know one another? A gifted young trainer like [player] … and they bother with someone like you [Lillie]? How disappointing. […] My, you do say such incomprehensible things. Calling me mother? I don’t have any children! Certainly not any wretched children who would run off and reject my love! So tell me how you’ll save that pokémon. What can you do, Lillie? You failed to convince me to listen to you. You don’t even have the strength of a trainer. The only thing you’ve ever done on your own is steal someone else’s research material!”
This dialogue is present in both SM and USUM. They did not change it. This dialogue is also highly indicative of Lusamine’s verbal and emotional abuse toward her own children. In this one little speech, she:
Degrades Lillie by insinuating that Lillie is not good enough to be friends with the player.
Says she’s disappointed in the player for being friends with Lillie, i.e. trying to embarrass the player into breaking that bond.
Disowns both Lillie and Gladion, and blames them (though Lillie is the only one here to hear it) for her choice to disown them.
Insults Lillie by calling her “wretched”.
Blames Lillie for being unable to “convince” her, rather than taking responsibility for refusing to listen to Lillie’s concerns and feelings.
Belittles her by saying that she isn’t wrong.
Insults her again by calling her a thief, and belittles her again by saying that being a thief is her only accomplishment.
That is a lot of verbal and emotional abuse packed into one little speech, and it is present in both games. We know, too, how deeply this affects Lillie, because (in USUM at least, though I’m sure it’s in SM as well) she bows her head partway through, in shame and hurt. Lillie tries to talk to Lusamine, yet ends up falling into hurt and shamed silence as Lusamine berates and drags her right in front of the player, one of the few friends Lillie has. That is abusive. That is, inarguably, abusive.
It’s only at that point that the dialogue changes, but in my opinion, it’s not any better.
SM:
“You’re not beautiful enough for my world … but fine. Since you’re here anyway, you can watch me summon my sweet beast. And then … you can leave. […] Maybe if you really had been a daughter to me, I would have listened to you … too bad.”
USUM:
“It’s so terribly unattractive. But know that my fathomless love will save even someone like you … when I protect this entire world from darkness!”
In SM, she:
Mildly insults Lillie by saying that Lillie is not beautiful enough for her world.
Once again blames her for “not [being] a daughter [to her]” and says that this is why she’s doing what she’s doing.
In USUM, she:
Outright insults Lillie by saying that Lillie is “so terribly unattractive”. (Yes, the pronoun “it’s” is there, but that pronoun is referring to Lillie’s actions, i.e. Lillie herself.)
Says that she will save “even someone like” Lillie, which is degrading, i.e., “you aren’t worth it, but I’ll save even you.” It’s another way of belittling and degrading Lillie, right there in the text.
She doesn’t have her “maybe if you had been a daughter to me” line in USUM, and instead thanks Lillie for keeping Cosmog safe for her, but that doesn’t mean the rest of the abuse is gone. If anything, the preceding lines were made even worse in USUM, particularly since the subtlety really speaks to how abusers (and particularly abusive parents) often talk in real life.
no subject
I have to say something. I’m going to try to remain calm, because civil discussion is the only way things ever get accomplished, but this is a very personal issue to me (enough so that I had to step away for a moment because what you said right there is that upsetting and to be honest hurtful), so I apologize if my tone gets a little harsh partway through.
First, to get this out of the way:
Lusamine canonically abuses her children, ON SCREEN, in both the original SM and USUM.
What Lusamine did in the past is one thing. We are told, thanks to Gladion and Lillie both, that she was abusive to them in the past. Gladion’s dialogue about “being like an ornament to [his] mother” exists in both SM and USUM. Despite Game Freak wanting to downplay Lusamine’s abuse in USUM in an effort to make her seem like an antihero instead of a villain, they did not remove that dialogue if you speak to him during the infiltration of Aether Paradise. A mother treating her children like objects is a mother who is abusing her children. It is literal objectification and there is simply no way to get around that. Furthermore, we know in SM that the abuse was so bad that Gladion grasped at whatever justification he could find in order to help himself cope with it, which in turn led to him blaming Mohn because that was an explanation he could deal with (in the sense that telling himself, “Mother is hurting me because she’s upset about Father” was easier than “Mother is abusing me because she doesn’t love me”). From the boy’s own mouth:
Gladion is not saying that Lusamine’s behavior was absolutely a result of her desire to see Mohn again. He’s saying that he made himself believe this because it was the only way he could get through the abuse. Again, blaming his father’s disappearance was easier for him, emotionally, then other (far more plausible) justifications. We also know (though this dialogue was removed from USUM) that Lusamine treated Lillie even more abysmally than she did before after Gladion’s disappearance, likely because Gladion wasn’t there to be a target anymore*:
Wicke was the only barrier between Lillie and a mother who treated her so horribly that she has held some resentment toward her brother for leaving her there for the past two years. Considering Lillie only left Aether Paradise six months prior to the game’s beginning, we know that Lusamine has therefore been abusing Lillie for well over a year, probably longer.
(*I say this from personal experience. Abusers often pick one target to single out and lay most of their fire on. They’ll abuse others around them, yes, particularly in the case of abusive parents with multiple children, but even in the case of abusive parents with multiple children, one child will often get it harsher than the others, particularly if that child tries to shield the others (and we know that Gladion is canonically a protective person, so it makes sense that he would want to shield Lillie). It’s highly probable that Lusamine concentrated her abuse on Gladion, and when he left, he removed himself as a target of her abuse. Thus, she turned her attention on Lillie, who suddenly found herself receiving much worse treatment than before.)
However, as I said, that’s all in the past. The fact of the matter is, though, that we see Lusamine abuse Gladion and Lillie in the present.
Ghetsis, for all that you call him “the actual abuser” (as if this series is only allowed to have one?), calls N a “freak without a human heart,” which is dialogue that is so cartoonish it’s laughable. Yes, it’s a mean thing to say, but it’s also not something that an abuser in real life is likely going to spout off. It doesn’t sound real. Lusamine, however, verbally and emotionally abuses both Lillie and Gladion (and in particular Lillie) in both SM and USUM, right in front of the player, using language that is very realistic. I say this, because the things that Lusamine says to Gladion and Lillie are straight up things that my abusive mother said to me in my adolescence, back when we were still in contact.
A few examples of Lusamine’s verbal abuse:
This dialogue is present in both SM and USUM. They did not change it. This dialogue is also highly indicative of Lusamine’s verbal and emotional abuse toward her own children. In this one little speech, she:
That is a lot of verbal and emotional abuse packed into one little speech, and it is present in both games. We know, too, how deeply this affects Lillie, because (in USUM at least, though I’m sure it’s in SM as well) she bows her head partway through, in shame and hurt. Lillie tries to talk to Lusamine, yet ends up falling into hurt and shamed silence as Lusamine berates and drags her right in front of the player, one of the few friends Lillie has. That is abusive. That is, inarguably, abusive.
It’s only at that point that the dialogue changes, but in my opinion, it’s not any better.
SM:
USUM:
In SM, she:
In USUM, she:
She doesn’t have her “maybe if you had been a daughter to me” line in USUM, and instead thanks Lillie for keeping Cosmog safe for her, but that doesn’t mean the rest of the abuse is gone. If anything, the preceding lines were made even worse in USUM, particularly since the subtlety really speaks to how abusers (and particularly abusive parents) often talk in real life.